ok sounds easy, but what about carrying passengers, with a full car with 4 passengers, will the tyres rub on the inside of the wing?

The chassis hit's the floor a long time before the tyres hit the wings, the extreme low channeled cars like the air-ride one in the pictures have 13" wheels, as when you're that low it can be a problem, my car is about as low as it's possible to get and I have 15" rims with 135 michelins.

I think people should be able to make their own minds up - if a high proportion of 2CVs in everyday use become significantly lowered over the next few years then perhaps you have stumbled on something worthwhile.

I have tried most things with A series cars down the years. If you wish to make the alterations I have suggested earlier in the discussion, then with some careful fine tuning your car will corner very aggressively indeed on all roads. _But_ I can imagine people simply unwinding their suspension rods, with no other adjustments, and making rather awkward progress around corners and over surfaces which are less than perfect.


Significantly lower your ride height and i) the springing gets softer. ii) the car will understeer like a dog. iii) the ride will be awful as the front bump stops stop the car from bouncing too low, so are providing the 'springing'.

Replace your springs with stiffer ones and the ride will improve since the springs will spring, rather than bump stops. But the dampers will be now be weak, allowing the car to bounce.

Upgrade your dampers to match the springs. Improvement. But the car will still understeer terribly.

Remove your front suspension arms, cut the ends off and reweld to recreate a smaller castor angle. Now the car will corner better, but the tyres won't be able to make best use of this new-found cornering ability.

Buy a set of wider tyres.

Now the car will handle a little like a 'racer', but the engine will feel a little feeble compared with the handling, especially since the gearing is now longer. Fourth may even be a struggle unless downhill.

If you start with a Ford or Vauxhall from the 1980s or before, a little suspension tuning can hugely improve the car - better dampers, stiffer springs to replace the sagging originals. A set of wider tyres and a free flow air filter, great! But Citroëns were not like Fords or Vauxhalls, or many other cars for that matter. There wasn't an 'L' or 'GL' or GTi. The 2CV was difficult to improve on, which was why it lasted the time it did in production. The damping changed to suit more modern roads - try one with friction damping and batteurs on unmade roads, WOW! The engine grew in output. But that was about it, apart from colour schemes.

So with your stiffly sprung car, you start upgrading the engine - a pair of race heads, noisy air filter, drill out the baffles in the crossbox, then you begin wondering about a camshaft change. No, you're broke enough. The steering rack and a couple of wheel bearings have needed replacement, and the tie rod eyes ought to be replaced with the extra stress. At least the seats from the BX were cheap.

Then you have a shocking experience. Late one night, on a winding B-road, another 2CV overtakes. You accelerate and keep up, revelling in the grip and grunt of your car. The other one is fairly heeling round some of the tighter curves, but not slowing. Eventually the hedgerows give way to suburban jungle. You overtake, and whip round the roundabouts, then stop for fuel, followed closely by the other car. It looks a little dented and faded, but otherwise as they were when new. "You were fairly going!" you remark to the other driver. She looks confused. "Not really, I like to keep a little in reserve. Your car is very shiny." !@**!

You've turned your car into something which feels remarkably like an old Mini. Small amount of wheel travel, gutsy, noisy engine, good round roundabouts, but better seats and more room in the back. Time to enter the race series, perhaps?




You alter one thing, often other stuff needs to be changed to compensate.



If the real world handling is amiss, then there is probably something wrong with your car - check the things I've mentioned earlier in the post. When all that is spot on, consider this: I once transformed a 1988 2CV by swapping a pair of rear arms. They were not corroding badly and were tracking straight, but I wondered what difference there might be with older ones. Many of you may not believe this, but the car was much better through corners, and the geometries were almost identical - I measured more than twice, I was so surprised. What was the difference, then? Anyone got any suggestions other than steel quality?

Joolz, to say modern roads (I take it you mean UK ones, today) require a different set up is a bit of a generalisation. If we were in France, then maybe. But for every large, fast roundabout and smooth new bit of blacktop, there must be at least ten potholes, broken surfaces, foundation subsidence and many speed humps, surely?

If you're out for the look, then unscrew and enjoy your low-riding 2CV. If you believe that simply dropping the suspension will sort out the cornering, think again. Unless you drive not too quickly, in which case it will appear as if your car is more securely tied to the road. It won't be, unless it has been lowered by only an inch or two from standard, for all the reasons I have mentioned.

Lowering the centre of mass obviously has an effect on the roll couple, but equally understeer can easily undo that effect. You're ignoring all the other things which happen when you drop the suspension, which work against grip.

To say 'go down the racing route' is true, but only if you make all the mods, but to a lesser degree. No good to make one alteration but not another. Plus, you forget the racers (in the UK) have many pages of rules dictating exactly what they can and cannot alter. They can't widen the track, for example. Doing this would be much more in keeping with the old Citroën approach rather than uprating springs, for example.

To try and reduce the amount of suspension travel of any car reduces its grip in the real world. (A race track isn't - do we have Top Gear to answer for this???) The Japanese didn't get this for a long time, which is one of the reasons their cars used to have second-rate abilities on British roads, and why they set up engineering depts in Europe.

As I said earlier, altering the damping rates and subtle alterations to bump stops is perhaps the best (and easiest) way to go if you want to control body movement and make your car handle even better, providing it is right in the first place. Otherwise it's a bit like fitting 123 ign to cure a car with tight/worn valves. In my opinion!



PS Joolz, you assume I only wish to stir up debate. I simply wanted to give those who are wondering about dropping their cars to improve cornering the whole picture, not just the simplistic theory - which, of course, taken in isolation, is correct. Very easy to mislead peeps by giving them some scientific facts which are relevant and so apparently vindicating your approach, while leaving out others which contradict what you're saying. We'll have to meet up sometimes and have a race, somewhere with lots of corners!

Oolong, I know what you mean about old suspension arms. When I was sourcing parts for Daffy Duck, I choose and old rear suspension. One thing between the old ones and the later ones was the quality of the welds. Very smooth on the old, very rough ans serated on the later cars. There is a photo prior to sandblasting.

I am not into racing a 2CV. I did lose my licence for too many speeding offences whilst driving one. I think I probably had the only 2CV in the world with a radar detector. I had to mount it under the chassis, below the front bumper, as they are illegal in Australia and carry a 1250 pound fine. It was eventually knocked off driving along a very bumpy road.

In a country where the revheads drive 6 litre V8s, I have a sign on the rear window to warn them that I won't be racing them. Daffy Duck, the Raid car has 135/15 tyres (Nankangs because they are cheap and available, and Michelins have too soft and baggy sidewalls which are more easily holed on bad gravel roads). That car is driven according to 2CV design specifications - across ploughed fields, rough tracks and boggy sand.

Daffy Duck

Great pics, Daffy! The arms I used were as poorly welded as the ones which came off, but from the late 70s. Fifties and sixties ones are often very nicely welded.

I asked you about the availability of Nangkang M+S (in another thread) because I reckon they're good all-round tyres, well suited to UK winters with a softer tread compound, but which last ok too. I haven't been able to source any recently, anyone know anything about this? The only Nangkangs are the generic Chinese type, like all the others - not as good at all.

They are listed on this Canadian VW site, not much use when you're in the UK...

http://www.concept1.ca/AIR%20COOLED%20F ... 20TIRE.htm

The Nankang tyres were model N803, which look identical to the M + S ones on the Canadian site. I am not sure these are available any longer in Australia as they no longer appear on their Australian website. Pity as they are good for Raid, with stiffer sidewalls, a good tread pattern and cost about 40 quid.

I still want to replace my tyres on the town 2CV with Michelin 125/15s. Given all that has been said on this thread, I find that enthusiastic driving of 2CVs with the intent of wearing off the "Michelin" embossed on the sidewalls is a worthy challenge. I must invest in an "angle of bank" indicator from a light aircraft to measure the cornering angles. Previously I had used the wife, relying on the octave of her screams to assess how much bank was achieved whilst cornering. Unfortunately she won't get in the car with me anymore. I reminded her of her wedding vows "For richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, til death us do part" and said one really good corner and we could get the trifecta. She has no sense of humour.

Daffy Duck

Mine.

Handles like a greased pig on ice, castor/camber all out of whack, steering is heavy as lead and doesn't self-centre. Chassis clobbers every speedhump.

Do I like it? Yes.
Do I care if anyone else likes it? No.

I like lowered cars. Simple as. I couldn't care less if it goes round corners any quicker, I'm 45 years old and drive like a pensioner anyway. BX seats mean it's still comfortable, even on the motorway at 75-80 (apart from the noise, caused by an almost complete lack of silencing...again, I like it, I don't care what anyone else thinks).

All the hammering it gets is probably doing the (original) chassis no good at all. I don't care about that, either. It'll weld.

There's a little maxim we have over on Retro-Rides that reads 'Your Ride-Your Way'.

Most of my mates are hardcore hot-rodders and Yank owners, they all LOVE it.

Like the scruffy look and devil-may-care approach.

Are these guys your mates? You might enjoy this too.

Recently sorted out a Dyane like yours for a mate, improved the roadholding and it is now a bit too fast for its own good... cars go past as a blur in the passenger window! Think it could do with a bonnet strap like yours, though - above 100 (according to satnav) it gets a bit flappy.

The whole thread summed up in 14 words - I like it