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Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
http://www.international2cvfriends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3454		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  ben [ November 3rd, 2011, 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
Just noticed an article in todays Metro paper confirming what i've read elsewhere that ordinary unleaded which now contains 5% biofuel will be increased to 10% next year as per yet another ill thought out EU directive.

It says that a million motorists that own pre 1993 cars will not be able to use it and be forced to use super unleaded at approx 8p per litre more (i already do anyway) ,it also fails to mention that a lot of these are classic owners or owning older cars out of choice ,just referring to them as 'less well off motorists' :roll:

There is a lot of info about ethanol on the FBHVC website ,and it has been causing trouble in the motorcycle world particularly classic bikes and scooters where it can cause metal tanks to rust inside ,fibre glass to disolve (some tanks are fibre glass) and damage aluminium carburettors and fuel line , causing damaged engines as a result . I have read a couple of reports of peoples scooters seizing up (older type 2 strokes) just up the road from a fill up with no apparent explanation,(very dangerous) and have had some strange goings on with mine here and there recently,after a fill up in France after a long trip this summer my Lambretta started getting very hot and the head started leaking on the A3 , i found a load of crap in the carb. Though i could not prove the cause i had been using a lot of cheap unleaded in Ireland on the same trip through no choice and do read and hear similar reports across forums and at rallies.


I wonder if people with 2cv's know or care much about it and what they think ,plus is anybody particularly worried about it or have noticed any ill effects so far on the 5% ethanol ordinary unleaded :?:

I use super in mine because i run some classic scooters so have read quite a bit about it and my van has a metal tank so i got a bit concerned about it rusting up inside when standing around half empty as the ethanol apparently causes condensation quite badly. Even if you don't i would say be aware when they up it to 10% because i bet it doesn't get widely reported or any warnings given out other than 'consult manufacturer' at the pump.

All this aside ,it can't be that ethical giving over thousands of acres of fields to grow fuel instead of food to feed the world, man .. :?:
Author:  Sean [ November 3rd, 2011, 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
yup on 2cvgb too

and my thoughts...
Quote:
ow dont! the paranoia will kick in again
classic car buyer had Mail like "armaggedon/death /destruction and EU conspiracy!!" headlines

As long as you are using modern fuel pipe for the rubber bits ( at last ECAS sell the proper stuff) on the fuel line , dont let the car sit for months then expect it to start first turn of the key and ensure that you don't let the fuel dry out in the carb or fuel pump it should be fine.

You may have to re think how the engine is timed as the Bio content and the lead replacements cause the fuel to burn differently (hotter and leaner - hence the "cleans your engine" and "extra performance" bullsh....claims) no longer can you rely on the 8* static timing as safe ...especially if the rest of the ignition advance is showing its age and you have High performance 9:1 pistons.

Most moderns wont notice all these changes to the fuelling as the engine management feeds info back to the black box and fuel metering and timing is constantly adjusted.
For us enriching the primary jet and using hotter plugs such as NGK b7s is common knowledge to those that know and the information is disseminated through the club and various forums- the information to keep your A running smoothly is out there. But if you stick doggedly to the "thats how Citroen said it had to be" then your going to start to notice things aren't how they should be - advice such as "advance the ignition by 5* for more power" is just crazy and will end in tears.


Long term embrittlement of plastic tanks - dissolving brass carb jets? we will just have to wait and see but its not going to stop me from filling up with cheap fuel and enjoying Europe wide jaunts

Sam stick that in the mag if you want-you may want to remove referances to traders and the daily mail

and
Quote:
Having lived with 10% ethanol for many, many years in the states with old Vespas, Cushman motorscooters and various older cars the effect will be slightly irritating but not the end of the world. Gas mileage drops a little. The last place I lived on the Atlantic coast posted warnings on the pumps about damage to plastic and fiberglass boat tanks due to continued use. I drove my motorcycle across the state line to get non ethanol because the dealership said there might be a degradation of carb gaskets but admitted it was a rumor from the local clubs and nothing from the manufacturers.


from Robert Saunders a Yank living in France making bits of aeroplane.
Author:  ben [ November 3rd, 2011, 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
Yeh i just noticed that as i was putting mine there :D

I like your thoughts as they aren't as depressing as mine ,certainly on the 2cv side :P
I am still very dubious of it in 2 strokes not that that affects many here .Apparently it can wash the lubricating oil away before it's done its job too, which could explain a few peoples engine seizures anyway.
Author:  Gas Mark 5 [ November 3rd, 2011, 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
I ran my mobylette of 85% bio-ethanol and castrol R for a couple of months, it didn't mind in the least. Other than fuel lines etc. I can't really see 10% making much difference... :)
Author:  Sean [ November 3rd, 2011, 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
think it may be due to the fact that it burns leaner and hotter so the engine being hotter the oil wont be as effective?

are there better synthetic oils for 2 stroke now? its been a while since i had one.
Author:  ben [ November 3rd, 2011, 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
Yeh there are plenty of top notch synth oils about ,and the leaner,hotter burning of the E fuels is why i use super unl in my scooters instead.

Plus it's probably true that a lot of the problems are on tuned engines as opposed to bog standard, that can do 70 ,80 mph and are ridden across the country and beyond under load ,but the stories i mentioned of the sudden seizures were on relatively standard bikes after fill up, one a new LML built vespa 150 cc model .Could be something to do with the owner i suppose but he seemed adamant that the only change was the fill up.

The thing is these things don't get that widely heard as there are only a relatively small amount of people doing that sort of thing with 2 strokes.

I did do a bit of internet research and found stuff about owners in the USA of small 2 strokes such as outboards and strimmers having a lot of grief.

As you say though , there is probably a lot we can do with set up, adjusting timing and compression, using viton seals instead of nitrile etc. According to the stuff on fbhvc nitrile isn't compatible with it :|
Author:  J-dub [ November 3rd, 2011, 4:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
So is this fuel going to be any cheaper or is it a con?
I love the way we don't have a choose :roll:
Author:  ben [ November 3rd, 2011, 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
Jameswallace wrote:
So is this fuel going to be any cheaper or is it a con?
I love the way we don't have a choose :roll:

No it won't be cheaper it will just replace what is already there and for those that don't want to or can't use it the only choice will be to use the more expensive super unleadeds (which as i said i do anyway for reasons above)
Author:  Sean [ November 3rd, 2011, 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
Jameswallace wrote:
So is this fuel going to be any cheaper or is it a con?
I love the way we don't have a choose :roll:


"take it or leave it " that's your choose
Author:  J-dub [ November 3rd, 2011, 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ethanol- fuel to get even crapper
Dictation asusyal from government
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